This site is dedicated to educate anyone who will listen to what is really behind the curtains of the Twelve Tribes. If you or a love one is considering interacting with this group, please read through this website and the attached links first.
This video was created around November of 2004. If you are an ex-member of the TT you may see some friends or family in this video. There are two men I consider very dear friends and brothers.
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A Pattern of Lies and a Path of Destruction
The Twelve Tribes Money Machine
Spriggs' Teaching on Race and Slavery
Sprigg's Teaching on Child Discipline
Child Abuse Did Occur in the TT - Stop Re-Writing History
Interesting Discussions with TT Ex-Members
A Brother & Sister's Interaction with the TT
Conversation with Cindy (Sister in YATT Story)
Michael Painter & James Howell - Videos 1-9
Michael Painter & James Howell - Videos 11-17
Michael Painter & James Howell - Videos 18-23
Michael Painter & James Howell - Missing Videos 7, 10 & 24
89 Reasons One Person Left the TT
Ex-members Testimonies - Part II
Noah Jones & Zeb Wiseman - Ex-Testimonies Part III
David Pike - Ex-Testimonies Part IV
Ex-Testimonies Part V - Australian Ex-Member Interview
“Lying is more than intentional deception. Telling the truth may cause serious harm to an innocent party. Such intentional deception may be moral and must be determined by judging if someone has a moral right to know the truth for justice sake” - Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying” 11/29/1988
“In making these statements we are not interested in seeking revenge or trying to be a disgruntled ex member but to inform people so they can make a choice based on facts. We know that the Tribes will never change as long as Elbert Eugene Spriggs is the sole uncontested leader. Spriggs may write new teachings or they may live in new places or they may wear their hair different or wear different clothes but the basic theme will be obedience to him and his teachings.” James Howell Spriggs personal secretary for 10 years -
"Before I joined I asked several key questions to the elders. They lied to me because they wanted me to join and I was not able to "handle the truth yet". They told me Yoneq was just another member. What I was told when I left was that Yoneq was considered to be equal to the apostle Paul and as such his teachings were considered on par with the Bible. Before I was kicked out and left on the otherside of the world in a hotel that sold pornography on the front counter (the hotel was chosen by an elder) I asked many of my concerns about the TT teachings to many of the "elders'. I received answers like "I find it really hard to believe myself' or "if you don't have faith then cling onto somebody else's faith". That is not where I wanted to be after living there for 20 years." - Ex TT Member
“We don’t want people to destroy their lives like we did. Most Tribes members know James and I- or at least our names. We don’t want people to waste many years in the Tribes like us and not enjoy a normal life and relationship with their natural families. The normal life that people enjoy previous to joining the Community will be destroyed and turned upside down.” Michael Painter, Former Fourth in Command of TT after spending 15 years in TT – 1/23/93
“Who will suffer unjustly by your knowledge? We must judge these things right so our conscience can be programmed right.” Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying”
“We are obligated by our conscience and the Holy Spirit to always tell the truth. What constitutes the truth? Not telling the truth (in certain cases) is not a lie then. Truth is truth. Not telling the truth to someone who doesn't deserve the truth isn't lying.” - Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying” 11/29/1988
“Will the government have right to know when we flee? We aren't obligated to them - do we have to ask permission? There is a vast difference between concealing a matter and telling a lie and deliberately misleading the enemy during warfare.” - Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying” 11/29/1988
“It is the glory of YHWH to conceal a matter. Prov. 25:2 This adds discretion and wisdom to our life and the apostolic teaching.” .” – Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying”
“At the Raid, the state didn't have the right to have the names of the elders and the children to carry out a grossly unlawful scheme.” - Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying” 11/29/1988
"After you join the community, you do not think, nor do you make decisions. You must submit, the guilt is so strong."
-Melinda Horton Former Member
“Our definition of lying means the intentional deception of those who had a right to know.” – Yoneq, “Phase 2 – Lying” 11/29/1988
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66 comments:
As a TT member being in for 5 years now, and now responsable for much of the money in the industry we have, I can tell you that no one is getting rich. We struggle to pay our bills . Sometimes bad decisions are made. But I am learning that we are just like anyone, we are NOT PERFECT !!!
We are in the struggle TOGETHER ,and I love living with my friends. I have changed alot over the last 5 years and I am a better person. Some people do say stupid things, like if you leave you will become a homo, but like any spiritual group you have people who say crazy things like that. Many of those people realize their mistakes later on .
Do not paint us all with the same brush.
Sometimes, money does get into the wrong hands. Sometimes there are leaders who struggle and make bad choices like padding their own pocket. We are just like anyone else, but at least we have a way to work it out with our friends and become better people.
I can't imagine leaving my FRIENDS. It would be pretty selfish if I did. I joined with nothing and trusted, now I control thousands of dollars and people trust me. The community is the real deal, some stuff on the net is true, some is false. I have a great social life too !
Appreciate the constructive words of current and former members.
The Twelve Tribes are the closest thing to the real Jesus/Yahshua I have come across.
I've had some very critical and sometimes mean things to say about them.
Because it was easier to blame them or circumstances, than to confront the things in myself that were unloving or hurtful to others.
They have more to offer people than all of us ex-members or cult "experts" put together, multiplied by 5000. They have a real daily life together, loving God and one-another. It's the real Yahshua.
Someday I hope I will follow Yahshua with them and never turn away again.
Anyone can go church and say a sinners prayer to accept Jesus, but how many people are actually being saved from the hurtful ways within themselves and learning to love one-another as brothers and sisters?
Where does that happen?
Eric Christopherson
"being saved from the hurtful ways within themselves"
It is to bad that they DONT address those things! They are not talked about, shared, discussed or dealt with! They are buried, hidden, pushed down in the dark to were they can stew and become septic...
If the "Shepherds" actually were true counselors and therapists and dealt with these things that would be great! I know of an ex-elder, shepherd who actually was a Christian therapist/counselor and one of the reasons he left was because he was actually stifled/muzzled and not allowed to even mention "worldly treatments/therapy" for common personal problems/growth etc.
Here are his exact words posted on FACTNet:
"Dysfunctional" is one of my favorite words to describe the TT. I see the problems primarily as a compilation of a whole lot of baggage from a whole lot of dysfunctional backgrounds - and nobody is allowed to deal with the issues." Nabashalam mentioned in a previous post that doctrine is not the issue but, rather, it is the human condition.
I want to say RIGHT ON. Doctrinal issues are a smoke screen to avoid the real issues of life. Consider the last 2000 years of Christianity. Consider the various religions of the world. And consider the past and current world conflicts.
Doctrinal issues cannot and will not ever be answered. Something cannot be known or proven until it is part of present reality. Until then it is only speculation - faith at best.
But, it is the real issues of life, the existential struggle that must be dealt with in the hear and now. We all struggle to understand the meaning of our lives. We all struggle to become what is in us to become. And we all struggle with our interpersonal relationshps.
Personally, the issues of doctrine concerning the TT do not bother me at all. It is the issues of life's everyday struggle that concern me.
FOAK mentioned that he left because he had no voice. This is the common denominator among those who left. Some of us are angry and others are apologetic - but the real issues have to do with suppressing the human voice.
There is a lot said in the TT concerning this. It is said that "we must listen to the least among us" and outsiders are challenged to consider how their human voice has been silenced.
But, in the everyday life of the TT, that is the real issue and why most of us here have left."
You can find the whole thread on Factnet here...FYI The ex-Shepard's name is "intransition"...
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=11687&highlight=intransition
Hi Nabashalam,
appreciate you responding and sharing and being honest about your thoughts and feelings.
The people I know in the Tribes near where I live seem very open and understanding and wanting to hear from all members. In fact, you wouldn't even know who the shepherds are or elders etc., because there really is a sincere humility.
I am just wondering that sometimes maybe a community may fail individuals, but that is not what's happening in the big picture.
Am certainly not seeking to make a judgment on any of this. I felt in my own life within the Tribes, that I had the opportunities to deal with negative things within myself and grow, but left instead of facing those elements. But, I was encouraged to speak and share more, the opposite of being silenced.
On the other hand, I'm open to the possibility that shepherds or a community could fail a member in need, but if the person made a commitment to Yahshua and loves his or her brothers and sisters, wouldn't it be better to remain, pray, and seek out other brothers who could listen and help bring healing or clarity to a situation, or subject, such as feeling silenced. Instead of leaving.
And, worst case scenario, no help comes, would it be better to leave the community, or to remain and trust God that He knows all things and what he wants will come to be.
I'm just wondering, if a person would leave, if they really believed it was the truth, the Gospel they wholeheartedly responded to at first.
Or, at some point, do they really begin to disbelieve. But is disbelief justified because of the failings of others, or of one's self.
Am really asking myself these questions, to better understand.
If Yahshua is real, what he did and does is real, and if the Twelve Tribes are his body/purpose, then people and communities may fail at times, but overall in all of the communities as a whole, people are being forgiven and restored to be more in love with God and oneanother.
Just some thoughts and questions. I just want the best for all of us. Everything I experienced at various times in the communities was not chocolate and roses for sure, but overall, I was very much loved, encouraged to share, and given a Gospel that seems more real than all other religions I've looked at or tried to give myself to.
I really believe Yahshua still loves me, because even though I've tried to forget about him and the communities and do other things, I can't. He is pure love to me, and the brothers and sisters I know reflect him in their life together that I see when I visit.
So, where I'm at, the real issue is Yahshua. Who he was and is. What he did. What he wants.
I feel bad if someone failed you, or if many people failed you in the Tribes, or if you believe the whole thing is a failure.
But, do you still believe Yahshua is there, that he has a purpose raising up the communities?
thanks for listening,
and I wish Yahweh's will for all of us,
Allah Achbar! heh...
One of the biggest problems I had in the Community, is living with a people that base the validity of their word by their senority, which is how long you have lived there..that is literally the only thing that matters, and we are all eventually pointed toward the direction of Yoneq, whom I have always liked the times I met him...But, that is the big problem there is the power others had over me, because I was asked to trust, ...so I did. I have alot of good things to say about my experience there, but Im talking about the deep, fundamental malfunction that my soul was experiencing, silencing my own conscience, seemingly attaining the exact opposite from what was being taught....When you silence the voice of who you really are, by lying to people constantly, then this is a state of mind that I could identify with the Lake of Fire, that, agian, seemed to be the exact opposite of what I was trying to attain, by being there in the first place...When you are not living The Truth then I guess that is a form of lying, on a real fundamental level, but as long as I was recieving my brothers and abiding in the vine, then everything A-OK, I actually think there was a LACK of spirituality, there, but, again, as long as I was obeying the chain of command, then everything A-OK...further point being, if Yoneq said we all had to wear yellow shoes, I would do it, because thats the way that place works, and honestly that is the same situation as 'drinking the Kool-Aid', NOt saying that anyone there had mean intentions of harming me, but the point is that people there , not everyone, are on a big power trip, maybe because they are lacking the power of the Holy Spirit, I don't exactly know, but the people with the power should be the people with grace, and in wordly terms, that means, don't demand peoples' obedience unless you know what your talking about!!! The psychology of these events is horrific, It is not OK with me to lose my own soul, however big or small that is, by surrendering all rights of life to people that don't know what they are talking about, I honestly think there is a judgement for people like that , which is high on the list of crimes against humanity, all in the name of Yahshua...If I am off in any way, I am open to speak to anyone, please correct me, tell me how I am seeing this wrong. A prime example of these people is ha emeq, she is the Queen of Pretencious, full of Darkness, and acting like a know-it-all, putting the trouble on me for having unbelief in the Community, while she is off committing adultery, I lived at the Sus house, Boston, between 95-97, and lived with both her and Yahdutan, knowing of this affair, certain things now make sense to me, about this time and the way people acted..Again these are the type of poeple that demand perfect obedience because they are closer to God than me..
....and along with previous comment is the act of taking off your head and putting on Yahshua...this is MIND CONTROL, can someone please clarify any justice in this act..this is becoming a robot, plain and simple..you can say that to anyone on the globe, about anything, tactics like these deplete our inner voice, again being under the force of people that insist you submit to what they have to say, and if you dont then your whole, 'salvation' is on the line....I am grateful for this forum, as it gives me a chance to vent, hopefully to others that can honestly relate, the only progress I made talking to my 'brothers and sisters' while I was in the community was in the form of a kahal, or the time I tried to go back in 98 to Colorado springs and got accused of having a religious spirit...the nerve of some of the people there that claim some sort of spiritual intelligence is beyond me, most of the time, leaving me in confusion, and a heavy tax on my head...Sometimes deep down, I don't think too many people know what the heck is going on there..As I claim to like many things about the 'outside' of the community, no one I know is ready to willingly silence the voice of their own conscience for the sake of power hungry losers..That is the worst feeling ever when you forsake your own soul, to follow the anointing,etc. etc.recieve your brothers......the pain is horrific, I gave all I had to the Community, all my trust, maybe I did not become someone higher up because I didnt give them a bunch of money, when I came in. Your initial credibilty has a lot do with how much assetts you can give...It wasnt enough to work day and night without complaint, I guess things just didnt work out between me and the community...It took me years to get my head strait form all the confusion(my fault at the time), for thinking too much..I remember being so releived mentally right after I left, that was the best, this was supposedly my introduction to the Lake of Fire, not so bad...Well, thanks, people for listening...Best Wishes for all of us...All means all-good night!!
"NOt saying that anyone there had mean intentions of harming me, but the point is that people there , not everyone, are on a big power trip, maybe because they are lacking the power of the Holy Spirit, I don't exactly know, but the people with the power should be the people with grace, and in wordly terms, that means, don't demand peoples' obedience unless you know what your talking about!!!"
Brett
________
The 'wheat grows with the tares', Brett. The wheat walk in the flesh, not after the Spirit. They will be interspersed within the community. Some,being of the flesh, apparantly seek for and gain power and position. These are the type who have forgotten or failed to understand the example of our Master. Yahshua came to serve, and showed when He washed the deciples feet that doing such service was not below Him. He gave this as an example that we should live to serve, and that no labor should be considered of any lowness of station for us to perform as we live the Life. He was not afraid to humble Himself before men and get His hands dirty doing the most menial of tasks. He walked in the Spirit. His true followers will harbor the same Spirit" If ye know thse things, happy are ye if ye that do them."
Those that have a clergical mind will avoid tasks that seem demeaning or of lower station to them, and sadly, their children will exhibit the same spirit. These things do not escape our Fathers attention, and He will deal with them providentially. What we need to remember is to maintain our integrity in "working as unto the Lord, and not as unto men".
Remember Brett,"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves; but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise" 2Cor 10:12.
It is the fleshly nature of man that seeks the path of least resistance and covets and seeks to possess power and privelege along with material comforts above others. It's about self esteem, rather than esteeming others better than oneself. Those that do these things have lost sight of, or have never really seen, Yahshua.
We are not to look to men for our example, but we are to look to Yahshua. As we abide with Him in His word, the Holy Spirit gives us glimpses of His deepnees and purpose as He lived and treated those who came into His loving presence. "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory,[even] as by the Spirit of the Lord" 2Cor 3:18.
It is good to have ones loving brethren to encourage and admonish in gentleness and love with all forbearance as Paul taught us, but we are changed into Yahshua's likeness by beholding Him. He said 'abide in Him and abide in His word'.
So, set your face as a flint and maintain your integrity before our Father and all those who have done so and have gone before us and continually stand as witnesses in heaven. Pray for those who persecute and misuse you. Injustices will happen, even in the Body.
And never mind " ha emeq, she is the Queen of Pretencious, full of Darkness, and acting like a know-it-all, putting the trouble on me for having unbelief in the Community, while she is off committing adultery"
If you/we enter into a hateful spirit because of real or imaginged injustices, then Satan's got you/us both.
Remember, Romans 8:13: "...For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die, but if ye THROUGH THE SPIRIT do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Let's always be merciful and hopeful for ones recovery. We are in the "ministry of reconcilation", not condemnation.
"How oft shal my brother sin against me and I forgive him, till seven times"? Yahshua Said, "I say not unto thee until seven times, but until seventy times seven". "Let this mind be in you that was in the annointed Yahshua".
your brother
"How oft shal my brother sin against me and I forgive him, till seven times"? Yahshua Said, "I say not unto thee until seven times, but until seventy times seven". "Let this mind be in you that was in the annointed Yahshua".
If this is practiced by the Tribes then why when I came to them asking for forgiveness and to let me come back on my knees in tears and supplication and a totally repentant spirit and a broken and contrite heart was I told to "Go ask Bob Pardon if he will take you in" Yoneq's exact words!
I left the Tribes in Aug of 2004 and went to Bob Pardons place, Meadowhaven http://meadowhaven.org/
from Sept to Nov and then went to live at a "Community" called the "Fellowship" community that follows Rudolph Steiner's teachings. http://www.fellowshipcommunity.org/index.php
After spending Christmas there and seeing their way out mixtures of scriptures and his philosophies I was pricked or rather STABBED by the spirit and all I knew at the time was I needed to return.( I suppose I should have stayed the 9 months like Bob wanted me to...) Here is what I wrote to them...
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/5304.html?1190924243
and here is what I wrote after Yoneq told me to go take a hike...
http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/archive/index.php/t-387.html
So you see the leaven in Yoneqs heart...and it has defiled the whole loaf!
Thanks, Anon, for any type of feedback, it seemed that when I was in the community, and tried to VOICE my concerns, they were mostly dismissed with sayings like, your being introspective, or when are you ready to give up your life....I, at times do get a little PO'd about haemeq, because of the way she treated me, decieved me, I don't claim to be a christian these days, as I didnt before i came to the community, so, when the Day of Reckoning comes, we can all have our Day before Him..As like now, im sure Im being thought of as some sort of Evil person for posting on here, point being, the blame always gets sent my way, being in authority, and being part of the body, you are never wrong!! I have learned to have a certain amount of faith, and keep a good conscience..But alot of this talk about saying its easy to point out faults in the community, and other excuses just doesnt cut it for me..My only purpose for posting anything on here, is to have a discussion, I admit my VOICE is weak, but my heart is ready to understand and listen...It is the faults of community members and the rebellion to be humble and honest, that drives people like me away from there..And things like brothers that have been there for 10 years that say, 'I should be farther along, but...', or the long-winded ones that talk their way out of accountability, and the straight hypocrites... the excuses never cease to exist in that place. I seem to have so much to say, sometimes I don't know where to start! One thing I really value, here, Anon, is to be able to form a DISCUSSION, that is something REAL to me...I was dismissed time after time after time, when I lived there, the people I have read and heard what they have to say on the internet, are saying real things about the accounts of what really happens in the Community..We can all list the things we like and really love about that place, but I feel we are all on here to find some sort of therapy because of the damaging effects...Having my mind turned upside-down, because of people like haemeq, that are living a lie, while the Community is passing Judgement on me that I was going to the Lake of Fire before I came to the Edah, and now that I left I am especially going to be there, wow, its so hard to express the depth of my feelings, after about 5 or 6 years, upon leaving I came to a sound mind, and became confident of my soul, and the life I live to stand before the Judgement Seat, and I come up with a very different conclusion than others in the TT have had of me...So, lets be real everyone!!!
.....And as far as speaking of Lets be real, that name on factnet, I realize who you are! Wow, Im sure you remember me, Nathanael, eating buckwheat pancakes, at the cafe, those were the best, all I can say is hello, and I hope your doing well, we came from opposite sides of the social spectrum.......and jodymcgrody, I didnt know you too well, but I came to St Joe., in 97, right when you were to marry basmat, I think thats her name, well, is she still with you.....Bye for now, Brett Scott
OK... Let's be real! No boogy man, santa claus or implied threats of punishment for shortcomings.
Let's look at the dynamics of the group... Does it look like, walk like and sound like a duck? Well then...
Read all of these lists of warning signs and see if you can find one that the Tribes does not fall into at least 80% of the criteria...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist
WE REAP WHAT WE SOW Gal. 6:7
Our words and actions are either giving of life unto life or death unto death: "I will bless the Lord at all times, His praise will continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make her boast in the Lord, the humble shall hear thereof and be glad. Oh, magnify the Lord with me, let us exalt His name together" Psalm 34:1-3
If we harbor a condemning spirit towards those who oppose us, whether they do it ignorantly or with evil intent, then that same darkness of spirit that we lay hold of and send out will return to encompass us and destroy our peace. This is a spiritual law, it can't not happen. We are always to return kindness, love and peace to those that have not found, or have wandered from the path of truth. Only by love is love awakened. Laying hold of darkness can not cast out darkness. It only increases the division and lays the ground for greater animosity. We can send forth an unloving spirit by things even as simple as our body language and even a glance that is stifling of life and is a spirit of destruction, rather than the Spirit of our Master Yahshua. Even the tone of our voice should be tempered with a gentleness that soothes the heart when we seek to encourage and restore our own and even moreso when we are in the company of those who would oppose us. It has been said, "Violence in the voice is the death rattle of reason in the throat". When we come to know our Master, as it is our privelege to through His Spirit, our voices will become subdued and become a welcoming and comforting entreaty to all who come before us. "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and also able to bridle the whole body" James 3:2 "When a mans ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enimies to be at peace with him". Proverbs 16:7
@ Anon, I thought you were someone else, as it is difficult to tell exactly who ANONYMOUS is?. Would you mind telling me who you are.You sound like someone in the Community, I appreciate your comments, they sound like sound wisdom. I get the idea that I am coming across with a condemning spirit, or some type of anger. Maybe, thats what is in me, Im Ok with that, could be from some other issues Ive been dealing with, lately. But my point about the Judgement Seat, is that the focus should not be on my possible rotten attitude, or anger, or condemning spirit, just take haemeq for example, what about the lie she has been living, what about that..I can see the good in her, and I did like her to a certain extent, but LETS BE REAL, Im not demanding peoples obedience, and then living a big fat lie. What is the real issue here? So anyway, anon, I agree with things you say, so far as ive come to understand what youve typed. And I do have a hard time communicating in peace, and grace, when people wrong me, but Im not living my life claiming I am Yahshuas prime example on the earth, like people in the Community. I BELIEVE God knows all things, and he knows my situation, what i do, what i think, what my intention,and motivations are, I BELIEVE IN His Heart, that to some extent has been revealed to me over the years. Thanks for listening, and letting me express myself on this page....and, Anon, I can be reached at keapin it real33@yahoo.com, if you want to talk in private...Thanks, Brett
@ Anon," Laying hold of darkness cannot cast out darkness" For people like haemeq, what about ex-communication, as I have seen other people be asked to leave for lesser 'crimes'. There are different rules for different people there. There might be more people staying there, and prospering, if it wasnt for WAYS in the community, like this one..Again, the example, I cheated on my husband, and led the entire community astray, with this lie, and the others ways of my life that supports this act, but you need to be like Yahshua, and have forgiveness, etc., etc., I experienced this all day long, how the focus is on the laity, the people not making the decisions, to be like Yahshua, How about the clergy? Does any of this sound familiar, or is it just me? If it does or it doesn't, this is one of the main concepts that I got so tired of dealing with, when I lived there...Thanks for letting me express myself, Brett
@brett
hey man, things could be worse! the new world order could ocme along and demand we all be part of a worldwide religion that embraces all, and if you don't want to be a part of it, exterminates dissenters!
Heh heh heh. I'm just glad to have my freedom. It's all I have, but freedom is a lot.
and that freedom will soon be threatened Jim. Actually it is already as they slowly one by one take away our personnel rights. Like sending you to jail for not getting your kids vaccinated with their poisonous concoctions...
Anonymous...yes thoughts have power...thoughts become things...so choose the good ones! We are all psychic generators and are creating, sending out manifestations all day long every day...
"Never be a cynic, even a gentle one. Never help out a sneer, even at the devil."
- Vachel Lindsay
@the james, what type of freedom are you talking about, things could be worse for me having the VOICE of my conscience silenced by other people demanding my obedience to THEIR word, theree is all types of freedom., for example you have fredom to walk around in circles in your jail cell, doesnt mean you have freedom to go outside the jail and go to the beach, etc. Your freedom, please explain, I guess well have to deal with that NWO and one world religion when it comes time.
....but , at least Ill have the human fundamental capabilities to make a decision, unlike the time I spent in the Community.....Peace
Brett, it is only by beholding Yashua can we be changed into His image, His likness, as is taught to us in 2Cor 3:18. This is a spiritual law. If you behold evil, you will take on it's spirit. If you behold rightousness, you will take it on through His spirit. Yashua is rightousness. He is the express image of His Father, who He beholds. If we are to obtain the heart of our Father, then we must behold Him through the life of Yashua. That's why His is the life that giveth light to all men. Yashua said to continue with Him and in His word. This is how we behold Him. As we peruse the life of Him through the scriptures, we are enabled by grace through the Holy Spirit's power to "see" Him. The Holy Spirit will give us deeper drafts of understanding of Yashua's heart. By this we continually come to a greater understanding of how He viewed us and how He showed us how to live and view each other. If we do not avail ourselves of this way, we will come short of what He desires us to become. If the leaders of our Body do not take time to behold Him in this manner, then they will fall short in their examples to the brethren. If we do not take time or are not given time for this process to take place, then we can only erect a faulty facade of outword rightousness, but come far short of the genuine article.
Satan desires nothing more than to keep men so busy that they will not take time to behold the saviour. His ploy is so that we would be unable to lay hold of what is most needed to have for our spiritual development. The evil one does this so that the grace of God, by the work of the Holy Spirit, can not bring us to the depths of understaning that we need to bring us to the desire and power to overcome and the capability to have the love we need for our fellowman and each other, which is necessary to truly become one withYashua . He does not want anyone to have our Father's heart.
If the leaders envelope themselves in Yashua by the continual work of grace in beholding him, then they will become effective vessels and portrayers of our Father's heart. We are not told, in 2Cor3:18, that by beholding faulty men we are changed into His image, but by beholding Him, Yahshua. If we are to have a true heart for repentance, confession, and forgiveness, or even to do the works of rightousness, in order to be saved, then it can only come by the beholding of Yahshua and the enlightening and empowering grace that accompanies it through the Holy Spirit.
James warns in chapter 3;" Beloved be not many masters, knowing that we will recieve the greater condemnation". This is an awsome responsibility and must be of persons who have come to the spiritual fruition in their lives by the law of beholding Him. The Holy Spirit instructs us in 2Tim 2:6 that "The husbandman that laboreth must first be a partaker of the fruits". And, in 2:24-26, that "The servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient; in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive at his will". The bottom line here Brett, is that ONE CAN NOT GIVE OF THAT WHICH ONE DOES NOT HAVE. We would only be putting on a conjured up facade of rightousness to our own dillusions and misconceptions. It is only by beholding Him that we are changed into His image and bear our Father's heart which enables us to be the true ambassadors, instructors and representatives of His Kingdom. It is by this beholding that we see through His eyes the distressing nature and enormity of sin and the power that it holds our fellow many in. By the knowledge that it is only by beholding Him, can we and they, be changed through the grace of our Father and His Holy Spirit. This gives us the true compassion to love all men as He does. He loved us while we were yet sinners. We are to love others while they are yet sinners; willful or not, "let this mind be in you that was in the annointed Yahshua".
Part II
As He continues to deal with our selfishness, we need to remember to not forget where we came from, what He delivered and continues to deliver us from. We are better off for where we now are, but not better than. "He that says that he is without sin is a liar and the truth is not in him". Even though we do not willfully choose to sin any longer , there are still traits in our natures that have yet to gain a victory over; things that we are yet blind to. The admonishings and encouragings given us by men that truly are our spiritual authorities will be recognized by that which is evident; they will have the love; the gentleness, considerateness and kindness and forebearance etc, the true fruits of a leader in Yahshua, and in His Body. They got this by beholding Him. If they or us do not take the time to behold Him then we will regress. This is why a community of one heart and one mind is necessary, but we should always be pointed to the beholding of Yahshua as our foermost example, for in Him is the life which is the light to all men.
The wheat does grows with the tares, and this is in the Body. But, in the parrable, they are not pulled up so that wheat does not become inadvertantly pulled up along with the tares. Our Father wishes none to die and gives a chance for those who do not see clearly or those who have gone astray to wake up or recover. This is why we forgive seventy times seven, even in a day. It's about mercy and hope for all. It's about not forgetting the goodness of God that led US to repentance in our many stumblings.Rom2:4. No one with an evil heart will slip past in the judgement; leader or otherwise. Just being a member of a group doesn't save you. We need to have the heart that only comes by the work of grace on the heart by beholding Him; the heart of unrequitting love towards God and our fellow man, just as Yahshua has. If you happen to come under a leader who has a false spirit, (If there was a Diotrephes in the early church's Body, then don't be suprised if Satan has his agents in certain positions now also 3John:9) then, count it as part of your trial and look to our Master; keep your eyes on Him, he is your Deliverer, not man. If you "delight yourself in the Lord, He will give you the desires of your heart. Trust in His providence, He cares for you. Justice will be done. All the tares will be bundled up and thrown in the lake of fire. There will be no excuses, especially for those who take leadership positions (James 3:1), if they do not avail themselves of the time to behold Him or allow those they master over to do so either.
Beholding Him, that's where "the Fruit" comes from; He's the Vine. One can not hang phoney fruit on the outside, it has to come from the inside. He comes to dwell in us from the "beholding" and we will bear real fruit; the fruit that gives life.
"Consider what I say, and the Lord give thee understanding in all things" 2Tim 2:7
Man that is right out of a free paper! Looks as if David Alexander (Daveed Derush)is back on the job. This person is definitely in the cult. Yup! I said it... The Tribes are a textbook example.
If I had the time or the inkling to, I could tear apart your diatribe sentence by sentence but why bother.
but I'll make a few observations here. Your way of "beholding righteousness" is to bury your head in the sand, cut off all outside information and even family who don't suck up to the Tribes, and cloister yourselves in order to be distanced from evil. But how then can you love the sinners when your so worried about your own skins?
You guys don't do squat but to try increase your numbers (hows that working out for ya?)and your physical holdings at the cost of neglecting your own people and keeping them with the least subsistence and medical care possible. Your living conditions reek of work camp.
One more thing. You mention leaders and the example they are to put forth. Is not Yoneq the "overseer of all Twelve Tribes? And is his wife also not an overseer even after committing adultery and fornication many times? "2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)"
I know for a fact that over 75% of the acting elders have had children leave or be sent away. Then how can they still be allowed to remain as elders/overseers/shepherds when they cannot even rule over their family? Or are these all tares??? or is there something even more dysfunctional going on there? Like NO HOLY SPIRIT!!! At Pentecost 3000 souls joined the body in one day and it continued from there. But you, who claim to be the only ones on the whole earth to posses the Holy Spirit since the first church can not increase your numbers and have remained at around 3000 for 20 years, although the actual people have changed a lot like a revolving door.
It is ironic, even amusing, that you have that freepaper called the "Imaginary Church" that depicts the Christians and their churches with people coming in the front and going out the back when that is a perfect example of your so called "Body"!)
So what's the deal? Do you not posses the Holy Spirit that would surely increase your numbers or do you have "Him" but you have "greived" Him or even "quenched" Him for 20 years?
All I know is you are not who you claim to be and you need to humble yourselves, repent for your acts and beg for forgiveness because if their is a final judgement your elders are in deep ca ca for the judgements and terrible things they have done to some wonderful people and familys and the faiths of others they have destroyed all in the name of God. And boy is He is going to be really pissed!
@ Anon, Thanks for your replies, and feedback, Do I know you? It takes me some time to say what I really mean, but i would like to reply, I do love discussion, and again, thank you for spending the time to explain in depth, alot of times I was dismissed by people there as having a religious spirit, or having unbelief, etc., It seems frequent for the problem to be on the people pointing out the problem, like saying WERE NOT PERFECT, and excusing the actions of those in charge, only undermines the integrity and graceof Yahshua, usually those in a power postion of the Community, use these excuses only to keep the power they have which obviously exposes their lack or real desire to have the power of the Holy Spirit, as you said coming far short of the genuine article. And i wish it were not so, or I NEVER would have left. The excuses seem to go as high as heaven but the real evidence is in the Fruit of the Spirit. Who is any to fool, only those that are in this sort of mind control. I hope to write more, Brett
tREASONING is defined as the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgements, by a process of logic...also defined as what is right, practicle, or possible. Common Sense, one's sanity.....and the practice as I understand in the community, is to do away with this fundamental aspect of ourselves, by taking off your own head, and putting on Yahshuas..meaning the brother, in authority,( if I have missed something so far someone please tell me). THIS IS MIND CONTROL, to lose the VOICE of your inner self, and do what other people in the community , basically force you to think. I understand taking off your head of things that have been learned 'in the world', to become like Yahshua, but I think this is a fundamental flaw, that is very destructive happening there. THIS WAS MY EXPERIENCE THERE, it has had deep lasting effects, obviously it has taken me twelve years to figure this out. I believe it is possible to live under GOOD authority, but when you have people in the flesh, in authority, this causes DEVASTATION on peoples souls. This is the main reason I left. And @ Anon, I appreciate you reaching out to me, and understand very well, the spiritual law you are trying to express, but you are acting as a third party, pointing out the spec in my eye, conveying I have a spirit of condemnation, while people like haemeq have the beam in their own eye. And what about the hurt of being misled, and DECEIVED, I came there with a sincere heart to attain a purity and righteousness, to behold the fruits of the Spirit, to be like Yahshua, I was trying to be a kind brother, trying to express love on the Grateful Dead tour, to be apart of a FAMILY, using LSD as a means to gain a better spiritual trip, and when I met the Community, I thought I found the better way! And so, I hear you saying to me to forgive 70 times 7. Haemeq never even apologized, dont you get my point. How is anyone supposed to endure there, and 'behold Him', when there are people like that claiming to be the top authority, living a big, fat, lie. Im sure if I did that, I would have been banned for a long time or even life. How can you demand peoples obedience when you are in the flesh? Judge me by my Fruits? These are my comments and frustrations, frustration in my life leads to anger, wich is what I have about some of my problems that led me to leave the community, I just hate it how the Community always points the finger at others, about problems there, Im sure my testimony here is being viewed as 'in the flesh' because I dont live there, and by using words like always I am being led by the evil one..I KNOW THE DRILL, My only purpose here is to have a DISCUSSION, to resolve issues about that place, that caused me to leave. I had a heart to stay there. The Holy Spirit, should cause people to stay there, like at Pentecaust when 3000 were drawn in at once, not stubborn people there that refuse to change their fleshly ways. People that dont want to give up their kush position in the Community...I hope this is the forum to talk about this stuff, I am very thankful to be able to express whats in me. To explain things about spirituality, I think I am at the 3rd grade. I wish for any and all to respond for the sakew of learning the truth, because we ALL had a desire to be a part of the Community, peace, and love, Brett Scott
I hear you brother...
I struggle with the same thing... I wrote this at 5am this morning... I couldn't sleep and had been reading a book a friend sent me. It's a 110 years old and it is called ""The Desires of Ages". I prayed(which I haven't done in a long time) and I opened the book and right were I opened to immediately spoke to me... I's on page 403 and it read"The Saviour's visit to Phoenicia and the miracle there performed had a yet wider purpose. Not alone for the afflicted woman, nor even for His disciples and those who received their labors, was the work accomplished; but also "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." John 20:31. The same agencies that barred men away from Christ eighteen hundred years ago are at work today. The spirit which built up the partition wall between Jew and Gentile is still active. Pride and prejudice have built strong walls of separation between different classes of men. Christ and His mission have been misrepresented, and multitudes feel that they are virtually shut away from the ministry of the gospel. But let them not feel that they are shut away from Christ. There are no barriers which man or Satan can erect but that faith can penetrate.
In faith the woman of Phoenicia flung herself against the barriers that had been piled up between Jew and Gentile. Against discouragement, regardless of appearances that might have led her to doubt, she trusted the Saviour's love. It is thus that Christ desires us to trust in Him. The blessings of salvation are for every soul. Nothing but his own choice can prevent any man from becoming a partaker of the promise in Christ by the gospel.
Caste is hateful to God. He ignores everything of this character. In His sight the souls of all men are of equal value. He "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us." Without distinction of age, or rank, or nationality, or religious privilege, all are invited to come unto Him and live. "Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference." "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free." "The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the Maker of them all." "The same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:28; Prov. 22:2; Rom. 10:11-13."
(you can read the whole book online here... http://www.whiteestate.org/books/da/da.asp )
This spoke to me about not being ashamed or of how I would appear to others when I wrote the letter and posted it this morning. It also reminded me of how much Yahshua hates "caste's" and that there are at least three maybe four right within the Tribes. So it reaffirms me that Yahshua is not liking what is going on in the Tribes and you can tell that just by how the vine is stunted and not bearing much fruit if any. The Tribes really need to rethink things and change a lot of things because who knows when Yahshua might get totally fed up and wither the vine completely!
"A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."
Here's the letter that poured out of me this morning...
In the past 5 years since I left the Twelve Tribes I have gone through many phases and stages. Every single one of them were the wrestling's and night sweats of a tormented soul who had tasted the fruits of the Holy Spirit and turned it's back on the church when it saw the Holy Spirit quenched by the shortcomings of fallible mortal men and also by my own human condition wanting to keeps it's own identity which the Tribes wanted to kill. No flavor they said... They wanted their "soup" bland. Cookie cutter disciples. "Cut your head off and put it on the shelf" they said. "You wont be needing that". But what does Paul say about that? "I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind."
There has never been a period longer then several months go by that I haven't had people contact me for direction or suggestions on were to go that might lead them to that "place to belong". It is common knowledge that I have walked point into several communities in recent years, secular and non-secular, to scout out the territory and to send back intel to others seeking shelter from the world. I too still longed for that place.
At first I would always report back at what good I had found. Loving people all wanting the same thing. Peace and love amongst the brethren. Some with the Bible, some with not. But never did I find the power of the Holy Spirit that made me cry every time I shared my joy and total stultification at receiving such love, forgiveness and acceptance that I had found in the Twelve Tribes.
I have spent the last 5 years trying to forget the love I experienced there, distracting myself with academia and self interests amongst other things. But every now and then a glimpse of the Spirit would prick me and remind me of that gaping hole in my heart. Remind me that I didn't want to live a life of solitude and that maybe someday that place to belong might find me instead of me finding it.
I have always thought that "God", if He wanted me somewhere and needed me to do something, was definitely big enough and powerful enough to let me know what and where that might be, especially if He knew my heart and that I was waiting unconditionally, willing and able to answer His call.
I also truly believe that "Yoneq" is that "sprigg", that second growth and herald of the new church shooting skyward from the tree that was cut down ages ago. And yes I think he has the anointing and has brought forth truths never heard of before but he has unknowingly been bewitched by a manipulating feministic spirit that has steered him off course with tradition, pride, exclusivity, legalism and judgmental tendencies which are far from the loving and forgiving heart of Yahshua.
.
On the common sense side, most of the "disciples" and families who left did from two sides of the same reason. That is that they are worked to death.. A "push" is understandable anywhere but a non-stop one reeks of a labor camp. Disciples, single and married, need leisure time and not just a couple hours a week. Husbands need time with their wives, fathers with their children and yes, singles with other singles and yes unsanctioned! Emergency's are understandable but you cannot put productivity in front of social well being. Now the other side of the same problem is you could probably get away with working folks that hard but when it is not across the board, you can expect dissension. When you have your single brothers along with your short timer's and a handful of workaholics who would rather be working then facing their marital problems(which abound due to lack of quality time) come home after midnight and have to be up at 5 to prepare for the morning gathering and see the "privileged" tucked away in bed with their families then you bound to hear some grumbling and thoughts of leaving.
I also believe that there are not just many but multitudes of people just like me searching for that place to belong and serve their God and Creator and that if only the leaders of the Commonwealth of Israel, the Twelve Tribes Communities were to humble themselves, repent and see the error in their ways that these same multitudes would flock in, along with the wealth of the nations, and we would finally see the body of Messiah on earth being prepared for His return.
There! I said it! It has been a long time coming but I am not ashamed...
So let the cards fall as they will...
"What can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
Signed, David Thomas Pike
aka: Daveed Yathed, Ex-Yathed and Nabashalam
In the past 5 years since I left the Twelve Tribes I have gone through many phases and stages. Every single one of them were the wrestling's and night sweats of a tormented soul who had tasted the fruits of the Holy Spirit and turned it's back on the church when it saw the Holy Spirit quenched by the shortcomings of fallible mortal men and also by my own human condition wanting to keeps it's own identity which the Tribes wanted to kill. No flavor they said... They wanted their "soup" bland. Cookie cutter disciples. "Cut your head off and put it on the shelf" they said. "You wont be needing that". But what does Paul say about that? "I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind."
There has never been a period longer then several months go by that I haven't had people contact me for direction or suggestions on were to go that might lead them to that "place to belong". It is common knowledge that I have walked point into several communities in recent years, secular and non-secular, to scout out the territory and to send back intel to others seeking shelter from the world. I too still longed for that place. At first I would always report back at what good I had found. Loving people all wanting the same thing. Peace and love amongst the brethren. Some with the Bible, some with not. But never did I find the power of the Holy Spirit that made me cry every time I shared my joy and total stultification at receiving such love, forgiveness and acceptance that I had found in the Twelve Tribes.I have spent the last 5 years trying to forget the love I experienced there, distracting myself with academia and self interests amongst other things. But every now and then a glimpse of the Spirit would prick me and remind me of that gaping hole in my heart. Remind me that I didn't want to live a life of solitude and that maybe someday that place to belong might find me instead of me finding it.I have always thought that "God", if He wanted me somewhere and needed me to do something, was definitely big enough and powerful enough to let me know what and where that might be, especially if He knew my heart and that I was waiting unconditionally, willing and able to answer His call.
I also truly believe that "Yoneq" is that "sprigg", that second growth and herald of the new church shooting skyward from the tree that was cut down ages ago. And yes I think he has the anointing and has brought forth truths never heard of before but he has unknowingly been bewitched by a manipulating feministic spirit that has steered him off course with tradition, pride, exclusivity, legalism and judgmental tendencies which are far from the loving and forgiving heart of Yahshua.
On the common sense side, most of the "disciples" and families who left did from two sides of the same reason. That is that they are worked to death. A "push" is understandable anywhere but a non-stop one reeks of a labor camp. Disciples, single and married, need leisure time and not just a couple hours a week. Husbands need time with their wives, fathers with their children and yes, singles with other singles and yes unsanctioned! Emergency's are understandable but you cannot put productivity in front of social well being. Now the other side of the same problem is you could probably get away with working folks that hard but when it is not across the board, you can expect dissension. When you have your single brothers along with your short timer's and a handful of workaholics who would rather be working then facing their marital problems(which abound due to lack of quality time) come home after midnight and have to be up at 5 to prepare for the morning gathering and see the "privileged" tucked away in bed with their families then you bound to hear some grumbling and thoughts of leaving.
I also believe that there are not just many but multitudes of people just like me searching for that place to belong and serve their God and Creator and that if only the leaders of the Commonwealth of Israel, the Twelve Tribes Communities were to humble themselves, repent and see the error in their ways that these same multitudes would flock in, along with the wealth of the nations, and we would finally see the body of Messiah on earth being prepared for His return.
There! I said it! It has been a long time coming but I am not ashamed...
So let the cards fall as they will...
"What can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."
Signed, David Thomas Pike
aka: Daveed Yathed, Ex-Yathed and Nabashalam.
I had coffee yesterday with a dear friend I haven't seen in a long time yesterday... He truly wanted to help me understand why I do certain things.Why do I suffer from polar opposite swings... and no I am not bi-polar... He was there more to just listen and to get me to listen to myself. People usually have all the answers to their own questions if we just listen to ourselves and get in touch with our feelings and identify the emotions which drive us.
That is my major problem. I act out of my emotions and not the true desire of my heart. I have always realized that I lash out when hurt or confronted with the possibility of being hurt/attacked.All the time knowing deep down that I need to step back, recognize these feelings and the emotions they stir up and just be still for awhile and let them pass, then address the situation. But being the addict that I am (we all are of some sort or another) I do not like feeling uncomfortable and want that quick fix, that hit, that one thing that will make me feel better immediately and don't think of the hangover, consequences or collateral damage I cause or the time spent on smoothing over my actions and words and apologizing for my knee jerk reactions and my lashings out... I do not make things up about the Twelve Tribes. I just report them but I admit and apologize for my fear and anger that seeps into my writings . I will admit here and now that when I am told of the unjust and heavy judgments and disciplines meted out by the Tribes my flesh actually enjoys the opportunity to get angry, to let the hurt, fear and anger spit out of me, to come out swiging.
In the future I will try and recognize my triggers and step back and wait it out. Suffer the slight irritation and then see what good I can do with it.
My mind will not let me forget the pain and disembowelment I felt when I cried to our God with a broken spirit and a contrite and repentant heart and asked forgiveness from Him and the Twelve Tribes for the spiteful mocking things I had said and wanted to come home and I was told by Yoneq, via my Shepherd but not by my Shepherd, to stay away, I was no longer family and to go back to Bob Pardon.
I was recently writing to a member who had left few months ago and he told me he was on his way back to the "Body" and that he was in for some heavy discipline but he was ready to receive it. I thought to myself, with my ex-communication in mind, that why should this man, who has a heart for "Yahshua" a heart of "Love" be punished for realizing that he was wrong and followed his Masters voice to return and then be throttled for it? WWYD? He would be chastised, shunned and castigated for several weeks while he shared in tears at every gathering, continually begging for forgiveness until an elder decided he had paid enough penance and finally spoke up and restored and reconnected him with a nod of the head and a "AMEN" or declared he was going back to the waters to be re-baptized or "washed"? If a shepherd lost a sheep would he beat him for weeks after it came back to the flock? He might "hobble" him but we are not animals. He might want to put a "stake" in his foot...(if you catch my inference) but the Shepherd must look at WHY did this sheep leave in the first place and not just blame it on a man's fleshly desires pulling him out when in most cases it was something not pulling but pushing him out. I did not leave to go spend my inheritance on wine women and song. I left because I had such a doubt that what was going on around me and what I was a part of was the work of God and the Holy Spirit. I could not live a life of wondering.
I try and convince myself I don't care what others think of me but that's a lie. I do care what others think about me and know that if I was more level headed and "imperturbable", as Yoneq coined, that I could actually be considered reputable and that what I wrote held some weight. My words might do more good, healing and possibly bring about change instead of hurting others and making situations worse. Instead of my outbursts saddling me with the reputation of being just another "bitter ex-member" and people dismissing my words just by seeing my name and not even reading my first sentence.
I will tell you now God honest truth. Everyday I was in the body I gave it my all. I suffered yes but that's a part of life, everyones life, but I also loved it and loved my brothers. I NEVER caused dissension or any sort of trouble. I worked hard, did as I was told and always made sure I was "covered". The only time I was ever "cut off", which was only once, was when I confessed a sin I committed while outside of the body and I was rebaptised for that after several months. Being "cut-off" was the worse feeling of my life. I missed being "a part" of the family, i felt like an orphan. So if you ask anyone in or out of the Tribes that knew me while I was there they can tell you I was not a "problem child" and I tried my best to please my coverings.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." The only fear of God I had was the fear of displeasing Him and I tried my best not to. The rest was reverence. I loved everyone, even the "unlovable"(another Yoneqism).But I realize now that I, under my own strength, I can't kid myself! I could NEVER love everyone especially the unlovable! I realize now that for me to love like that took supernatural power. The power of the Holy Spirit. This kind of "LOVE" is considered foolishness by natural man but it is THAT is the kind of love that is going to save the spirits of men. And I miss that "LOVE"!!!!
I took a look at what emotions motivate my outbursts now. It is fear. It is the fear that the Twelve Tribes are actually destroying themselves. Yes that is right. Deep in my heart I WANT them to be whom they say they are! I want them to be the True Body and Bride of Messiah and for them to accomplish their mission and to bring back the return of "LOVE" to the earth.
There are several words that are completely interchangeable and mean the same exact thing. That is "Yahshua", "The Word" "Savior" "Messiah" "Gods Salvation" and "LOVE". Show me were I am wrong. The "Word" is what is going to save us. It is "LOVE" that is going to save us. Our words must be love. Our lives must be love. We must be love. Gods word is love! We must be prepared in order to become love, to be married to love and two will become one. We must become "LOVE". This is what will save us! For everyone to take on the heart and the mind of "LOVE" Don't you see it? It is the only thing that will save mankind and this earth. The Kingdom of "LOVE". If this does not happen... we all see what is and will happen to this earth.The "Word" brought EVERYTHING into existence. "LOVE" created the Earth and the firmaments. The evil one (hate, fear and greed) is destroying it. He is still angry that it was made for us and not for him and he wants us to destroy Gods gift to us.
So you see, I am not trying to destroy the "Body" nor hurt them. I am trying to get them to see that if the atrocities continue that are being done in "Loves" name, their lamp post will be removed and THEN WHAT???? Who else will be the Bride pure enough to make "Love" want to return and marry man and for "Love" to rule and reign the earth?
The longing of my heart along with many ex-members is still for that place to belong. A place of one heart and one mind and that mind is the mind of "Yahshua"," LOVE", The WORD" which is "God's Salvation". Where families, children, brothers and sisters can live together for, with and as "Love"...
When I say this next word I say it with all due respect and sincerity and yes love...Shalom.
David T Pike aka Daveed Yathed
He who is drowned is not troubled by the rain.
-- Chinese Proverb
It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.
- Mark Twain
Today, after reading my last letter (which on review could have used another draft...my editor friend would shriek!) I started thinking (there I go again...working without tools!) and I asked myself, "Why for the past 5 years have I pounded the Twelve Tribes with everything I've got? Fervently posting on FACTNet and even working my way up the ranks from a moderator to head front page editor. Scouring the Internet news for articles on the Tribes and praising reporters for negative pieces and lambasting ones who wrote articles praising them. Also trying to get ex-members to speak out against them to journalists only to find that most did not want to speak about it or they feared being cut-off from loved ones still in the Tribes. And in my opinion I believe that many still have hopes of returning once again.
There are dozens of young adult ex-members on face book that don't want to hear about it. They are medicating themselves with the "salves" of the world and don't want to be reminded of what they left. Why? What are they trying to forget? Is it the pain and suffering they wish to forget or is it the love, the wholesomeness and modest lives their parents were raising them in? I think I know the answer to that. They tell me "Why don't you just leave them alone?". I think they realize the pain that they have caused by turning from their father's heart and don't want me to add to it. They realize the life they left is in no way comparable to life they live now. The one of no substance but self. Some will, and have, lashed out like I have only to deepen their parents sorrow. Some flaunt their lecherous and debouched lifestyles on the net for all to see which must deeply sear their parents but then turn around and want to protect their parents from further attacks.
Why, I asked myself this, have I taken on this burden to attack the Tribes for five years now? For sport? You would have thought I would have grown tired from it by now. Why have I made it my mission to discredit them? What was the motivating emotion? Was it fear? Was it anger for the damage suffered upon me! NO I say. I was NEVER mistreated, overworked (maybe a little but not as much as the young men and once I started having physical problems my yoke was lite) or neglected. When I left last I had it great for a "well established single brother" (Yoneqism:). I worked 8 hours at the Mate Factor in Manitou Springs and actually ate better then most. I had a room with 3 beds in it and usually I was the only one there,. My roommate, Yoceph Ganya, was always gone somewhere... So I can't say I left because of the terrible living conditions or for being mistreated. And once I let it be known that I was leaving (again) I was taken to the bus station by my best friend(who ironically took me to the bus station the last time I left) in the Tribes with no "shame on you" but rather a "do you need anything". I left because I was not sure if that was what God wanted me doing with my life or if the life I was living was truly going to bring about "Love" to rule and reign over the world as it should. I was fishing for men and truly wanted to bring "gentiles" into the "Body" of Messiah but was what I was bringing them into really the "Bride"? I could not be sure so I left.
So... It was not fear that has made me hang on to my "mission". Carry this burden.It was "LOVE". I saw, felt and tasted the fruits of the Holy Spirit in the Communities of the Twelve Tribes. There is something working their that is not natural. It can't be. I experienced a love that I cannot and never will be able to forget. One that I have NEVER seen outside of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
It has come to my attention that Yoneq has stepped down and is only an adviser now and a scribe of teachings and that Ha'Emeq is no longer in a place of authority. I don't know if this is fact. But if it is, and the Tribes will begin to operate out of a council of twelve with checks and balances set in place, then we actually might see "Love" finally take the point and judge accordingly and also see Ruach Ha' Kodesh lead them in the proper direction... we just might even see mighty works, the healings and thousands saved in a day (even professionals, especially Doctors and Dentists) and the wealth of the Nations pour in. And yes! Communities and clans every 100 miles across this nation and all the other nations were the Sabbath is truly observed, and "LOVE" spread like wildfires!
I have a friend who is "weighing the cost" and he sees the dysfunction in the Tribes. Granted you will find that wherever you go, but would you be better off trying to change or cure that dysfunction from within or without? Once you are in you are not allowed to reason. It is said that reasoning is questioning Gods portion for you and you are not to compare yours with others. So how can a man, a protective father, ever put his children in harms way or in situations where their faith is questioned when you question the directions or pressures coming from your peers and elders? Therefore succumbing to these pressures and making decisions that go against your own conscience? I advised him, not that I am one to listen to, that it would be better to try and get these things straightened out to begin with. God forbid that everyone needs a contract or assurances and guarantees to give up his life for the Kingdom Of God but a man must know that he is still the head of his own family and will not be questioned nor looked down upon for his protectiveness of his spouse or offspring by his peers.
One thing that bothers me from the past. What is it with the so called "judgments"? Why someone died? What sentence to lay down on infractions. Do you not know this is not the time of judges and judgments? The time will come but it is not now!
"I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel".
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
There is no other "Intentional Community" that has ever survived as long as the Tribes have, especially a non-secular one without it falling apart, going in a completely different direction as the founders foresaw or becoming so large that it became a institution and lost all it's intimacy and love. This is why I have carried a torch for so long... I do not want their flame to disappear! Their oil is precious and as far as I know it is to be found nowhere else on this earth. I do not want that to be lost. It would mean the loss of innocinnocenceankind and it's demise. The Twelve Tribes Communities just hit 40...the time of probation... What's next?
If I could accomplish anything in my life before I die it would be to broker a "sit down" amongst families. (sounds a little like the "Godfather") . The leaders of the Twelve Tribes and the families, husbands, wives, single brothers and sisters and youths who have left or were "sent away" and desire to return but only under certain conditions...
As for myself, I could care less if I die and am buried in a paupers grave. But for the whole of humanity to lose it's chance to redeem itself? To lose its chance to be saved by "LOVE"? I would gladly die an unknown martyrs death to preserve that chance.
PS... You all know how to get in contact with me... I won't hold my breath... but actually deep down I am...
just in case...608-257-1114
respectfully and sincerely from the desk of David T Pike
He who is drowned is not troubled by the rain.
-- Chinese Proverb ( a dead man feels no discomfort )
It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare.
- Mark Twain
David - Your heart is open and you long for acceptance and love. Unfortunately, you will not find either in the TT as you have found to be true time and again. If they truly loved and had the Holy Spirit, they would have taken you back years ago. Their pride is larger than their love for the human soul. The base of their beliefs remains, even if Yoneq has stepped down...and that is they are the only ones with the Holy Spirit. However, if that were true, the pain and suffering they have caused so many for so many years would not have happened.
You are changing my friend, but they have not. Look at how Brett has been treated. Is this not the same pattern that has been repeated countless times? As you know, amidst the very faithful, hard working, unappreciated masses of the TT are power hungry abusers. These are the people who are still in charge.
Let your heart be soft and seek forgiveness and acceptance from God, but do not expect it from the TT or you will only be crushed again.
nabashalam said:
"My mind will not let me forget the pain and disembowelment I felt when I cried to our God with a broken spirit and a contrite and repentant heart and asked forgiveness from Him and the Twelve Tribes for the spiteful mocking things I had said and wanted to come home and I was told by Yoneq, via my Shepherd but not by my Shepherd, to stay away, I was no longer family and to go back to Bob Pardon.
I was recently writing to a member who had left few months ago and he told me he was on his way back to the "Body" and that he was in for some heavy discipline but he was ready to receive it. I thought to myself, with my ex-communication in mind, that why should this man, who has a heart for "Yahshua" a heart of "Love" be punished for realizing that he was wrong and followed his Masters voice to return and then be throttled for it? WWYD? He would be chastised, shunned and castigated for several weeks while he shared in tears at every gathering, continually begging for forgiveness until an elder decided he had paid enough penance and finally spoke up and restored and reconnected him with a nod of the head and a "AMEN" or declared he was going back to the waters to be re-baptized or "washed"? If a shepherd lost a sheep would he beat him for weeks after it came back to the flock?"
That type of demeaning spirit is just another red flag that brings question as to if it is the Holy Spirit or another spirit that controls the twelve tribes. In the story of the prodigal son, the Father and all of his household kill the fatted calf, celebrate and rejoice, for one who was lost is now found having seen the error of his way and repented. He is welcomed back into the family as a son, even though he has lost much in his waywardness. He no doubt spoke with disdain and criticism about his former life when the subject came up, until he realized in his destitution, what he had lost and become. But, the Holy Spirit of the scriptures shows a Body that are glad that he has been recovered from the world and receive him in joyful love and celebration.. This depicts how all heaven responds in exuberant joy to a lost one returning. This reflects therefore on our father's heart, and the reason that it is awarded a perpetual place in the scriptures is so that we would be of the same Spirit when a lost sheep returns and that we would be delivered from despair and have hope should we go astray.
It's strange that when a family moves from on tribe or clan to another, they are received with great fanfare, but they have not just recently been freed from the evil ones grasp, they are merely changing addresses.This is not to say that they should not be warmly welcomed, but when one comes back acknowledging his error, should he not be welcomed with great celebration and fanfare? The Holy Spirit says so. Our Father's heart says so. Why do the Twelve Tribes disobey our Father in this way?
There was one who did not rejoice in the sons return, his brother. Instead, he had a dark spirit towards his brother. He did not have the spirit of our Father, he had another spirit. He was of the type that would rather focus on the evil than the good. It could be said that he was,in spirit, a member of the tribe of Dan, no doubt; a backbiter that seeks for the evil in a person and fails to see the good. He would rather berate him for his error, and be envious of the joy and expense that the true body displayed for his brothers return.
The same spirit reigns now that reigned when Hobab was humiliated to tears for oversleeping. There was no warm loving counsel for an error if there was one, nor no compassion for him if he had exhausted himself in work and was unable to rise on that particular morning. Only by love is love awakened. The other spirit is of the Evil one. I was caught up in that spirit while in the captivity of the Catholic Church. The beast by any other name is still the beast. It's about a spirit.
continued:
The Twelve Tribes has the right concept of the Body laying down their lives in community for each other, but there is another spirit in there that does dishonor to our Father's heart in how the repentant who return are treated. It is a powerful testimony to the fact that the love is an outward manifestation, but not the true fruit of the inward manifestation that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit brings.
"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord"
"Now the Lord is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty" 2Cor 3:18,17
As we peruse the scriptures and view the life of Yahshua, the Holy Spirit brings us into greater understanding of the way He interacted with those caught up in sin, like the woman at the well and the woman caught up in adultery, and those who would be enemies even, such as the demon possessed men at Gennesaret that were delivered from their spiritual captivity.
The more we peruse the scriptures, the greater depth of understanding we will be given by the Holy Spirit of His "Way". We will have greater compassion for all men and understand their inability to deliver themselves from the oppressor with out the power of the One who gives liberty. If we don't take time to individually peruse the life of Yahshua then we can not be brought to this ever increasing depth of Spiritual understanding which brings us deeper draughts of indwelling love to our Father and our fellow man. It is by beholding Him, on a personal basis, that we recieve this gift. We can not get it from men. They may exhibit greater displays of His spirit and love as they behold Him, and that is a good influence in building up the Body, but each person must be brought to greater levels of having our Father's heart by their own perusals. "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father" There is no better way to get it than how Yahshua said to get it. Or, is He "a liar that listens to liars" too?
"Let this heart be in you that was in Yahshua"
Interesting you would mention the Tribe of Dan. The name actually means "Judge" which the Tribes seems to think they have been given that authority to judge before it's true time. They love to have "judgments" on everything. They judge every single death, major illness or severe accidents so as to know who to lay the blame on even when there is no blame to be had.
Maybe they are Dan!
from wikipedia....
"According to the Book of Revelation (7:4-8), the tribe of Dan is the only original tribe of Israel which is not included in the list of tribes which are sealed. No mention is made of why they are excluded. It could be a textual error (Menasheh substituted for Dan) or it could be because of their pagan practices.
This made Hippolytus of Rome and a few Millennialists apparently claim that the Antichrist will come from the tribe of Dan."
oH BTW... Is that you voice? 4 posts up?
Are you Bill or are you the original voice come back?
Which ever...welcome back!!!
You were missed!
I feel things are shifting...
moving...
Exciting times to be alive...
WoW!!!!! Thanks Voice, and Anonymous, for your comments. Sometimes it is hard for me to put words to the way I feel, but Thnks for posting these things, makes so much sense, We could all be labeled as blasphemers by using this forum, but my sentiment is to have a discussion about what REALLY goes on there, for the sake of resolving REAL issues to find that place to belong, I believe there is another spirit at work there, and wish it were not so, my only place on here is in hopes that the TT was the place I thought they were, Im sure like others may feel. Outwardly, I had some of the most beautiful times, and experiences, but because of the set-up there the psychology handed down to me was not acceptable and unconscienable, obviously why I left, and if things were or are different, I would be on the next plane, to be there, and would go door to door in a continuous circle until I reached the ends of the earth, telling all how grweat and wonderful the life of Yahshua is. I may have been viewed to greive the HS by leaving, but it was a righteous thing for me to do by leaving because the HS is or has greived from these ways that cause some, or maybe most to leave, and cant be fixed because the people there in charge WON't change, the Judgement lies on them, not everyone else that has left. The fruit is obvious and themore I think about it the more the gospel and the growth of the HS has to do with gardening. But on that note people in the TT will say something like 'well, many are called , but few are chosen' is the explanation fro the low numbers of the TT...My sentiment today towards the Tribes as a FRIEND suggested to me is to pray for THEM, and this I will do, and hope they will come to a truth that becomes functional and real, I will be more than happy to give up my 'life' for the cause, as now I live the same tyoe of life as before I met the tribes, the next best thing, and I have 'nothing better to do', I have alot of Love for the TT, and am not here to bash or tear down the Tribes, only to figure out what, if possible has gone awry there. And this cannot be accomplished be rejoining, because by the way that place is set-up you come under that same spirit, My sentiment towards Naba, the same thing is bound to happen, not steering you away form them in any way, just trying to KEEP IT REAL. Thank you all for letting me VOICE my opinion here, I went years on my own trying to conclude my experience and problems there, which is very difficult, but worth it , and I dont claim to be any type of spiritual genious, as I am thankful for the help of others I have come into contact with in the last months, and with this said, according to the TT, I may be under a certain spirit, by saying this, but thats only to say that I KNOW THE DRILL of the TT, and it is a line form the GD.....'Where have all the people gone TODAY!!!!!!!!!' Thank you, Brett Scott
I have been reading a book a dear friend of mine has sent me and it has really been talking to me... A week ago you couldn't get me to even look at anything non-secular let alone read it... But I gave it a try... I prayed and asked for some direction and it did! My faith is slowly being restored after I disposed of it just as a self defense mechanizm after I was turned down by the Tribes.
This morning I was thinking about the things I wanted to change in the Tribes and all the judgments on deaths, injuries and sicknesses popped up
I now see how God did not create a new culture or made "something old being born again". He created just a new denomination! And not really a new one but one plagiarized from many already existing! He picked and chose his brand of "fire".He took from the Catholics, the Later Day Saints, the Jehovah witnesses just to name a few. Oh! and a lot from the Jews!
Now about the book I was speaking about... It is "The Desire of Ages" and here is what it said to me this morning...
It was generally believed by the Jews that sin is punished in this life. Every affliction was regarded as the penalty of some wrongdoing, either of the sufferer himself or of his parents. It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God,--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner.
Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isa. 53:4, 3.
God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ.
The belief of the Jews in regard to the relation of sin and suffering was held by Christ's disciples. While Jesus corrected their error, He did not explain the cause of the man's affliction, but told them what would be the result. Because of it the works of God would be made manifest. "As long as I am in the world," He said, "I am the light of the world." Then having anointed the eyes of the blind man, He sent him to wash in the pool of Siloam, and the man's sight was restored. Thus Jesus answered the question of the disciples in a practical way, as He usually answered questions put to Him from curiosity. The disciples were not called upon to discuss the question as to who had sinned or had not sinned, but to understand the power and mercy of God in giving sight to the blind. It was evident that there was no healing virtue in the clay, or in the pool wherein the blind man was sent to wash, but that the virtue was in Christ.
The Pharisees could not but be astonished at the cure. Yet they were more than ever filled with hatred; for the miracle had been performed on the Sabbath day.
The neighbors of the young man, and those who knew him before in his blindness, said, "Is not this he that sat and begged?" They looked upon him with doubt; for when his eyes were opened, his countenance was changed and brightened, and he appeared like another man. From one to another the question passed. Some said, "This is he;" others, "He is like him." But he who had received the great blessing settled the question by saying, "I am he." He then told them of Jesus, and by what means he had been healed, and they inquired, "Where is He? He said, I know not."
Then they brought him before a council of the Pharisees. Again the man was asked how he had received his sight. "He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see. Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because He keepeth not the Sabbath day." The Pharisees hoped to make Jesus out to be a sinner, and therefore not the Messiah. They knew not that it was He who had made the Sabbath and knew all its obligation, who had healed the blind man. They appeared wonderfully zealous for the observance of the Sabbath, yet were planning murder on that very day. But many were greatly moved at hearing of this miracle, and were convicted that He who had opened the eyes of the blind was more than a common man. In answer to the charge that Jesus was a sinner because He kept not the Sabbath day, they said, "How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles?"
Again the rabbis appealed to the blind man, "What sayest thou of Him, that He hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet." The Pharisees then asserted that he had not been born blind and received his sight. They called for his parents, and asked them, saying, "Is this your son, who ye say was born blind?"
There was the man himself, declaring that he had been blind, and had had his sight restored; but the Pharisees would rather deny the evidence of their own senses than admit that they were in error. So powerful is prejudice, so distorting is Pharisaical righteousness.
The Pharisees had one hope left, and that was to intimidate the man's parents. With apparent sincerity they asked, "How then doth he now see?" The parents feared to compromise themselves; for it had been declared that whoever should acknowledge Jesus as the Christ should be "put out of the synagogue;" that is, should be excluded from the synagogue for thirty days. During this time no child could be circumcised nor dead be lamented in the offender's home. The sentence was regarded as a great calamity; and if it failed to produce repentance, a far heavier penalty followed. The great work wrought for their son had brought conviction to the parents, yet they answered, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: but by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself." Thus they shifted all responsibility from themselves to their son; for they dared not confess Christ.
The dilemma in which the Pharisees were placed, their questioning and prejudice, their unbelief in the facts of the case, were opening the eyes of the multitude, especially of the common people. Jesus had frequently wrought His miracles in the open street, and His work was always of a character to relieve suffering. The question in many minds was, Would God do such mighty works through an impostor, as the Pharisees insisted that Jesus was? The controversy was becoming very earnest on both sides.
The Pharisees saw that they were giving publicity to the work done by Jesus. They could not deny the miracle. The blind man was filled with joy and gratitude; he beheld the wondrous things of nature, and was filled with delight at the beauty of earth and sky. He freely related his experience, and again they tried to silence him, saying, "Give God the praise: we know that this Man is a sinner." That is, Do not say again that this Man gave you sight; it is God who has done this.
The blind man answered, "Whether He be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see."
Then they questioned again, "What did He to thee? how opened He thine eyes?" With many words they tried to confuse him, so that he might think himself deluded. Satan and his evil angels were on the side of the Pharisees, and united their energies and subtlety with man's reasoning in order to counteract the influence of Christ. They blunted the convictions that were deepening in many minds. Angels of God were also on the ground to strengthen the man who had had his sight restored.
The Pharisees did not realize that they had to deal with any other than the uneducated man who had been born blind; they knew not Him with whom they were in controversy. Divine light shone into the chambers of the blind man's soul. As these hypocrites tried to make him disbelieve, God helped him to show, by the vigor and pointedness of his replies, that he was not to be ensnared. He answered, "I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be His disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art His disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence He is."
The Lord Jesus knew the ordeal through which the man was passing, and He gave him grace and utterance, so that he became a witness for Christ. He answered the Pharisees in words that were a cutting rebuke to his questioners. They claimed to be the expositors of Scripture, the religious guides of the nation; and yet here was One performing miracles, and they were confessedly ignorant as to the source of His power, and as to His character and claims. "Why herein is a marvelous thing," said the man, "that ye know not from whence He is, and yet He hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshiper of God, and doeth His will, him He heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this Man were not of God, He could do nothing."
The man had met his inquisitors on their own ground. His reasoning was unanswerable. The Pharisees were astonished, and they held their peace,--spellbound before his pointed, determined words. For a few moments there was silence. Then the frowning priests and rabbis gathered about them their robes, as though they feared contamination from contact with him; they shook off the dust from their feet, and hurled denunciations against him,--"Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us?" And they excommunicated him.
Jesus heard what had been done; and finding him soon after, He said, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"
For the first time the blind man looked upon the face of his Restorer.. Before the council he had seen his parents troubled and perplexed; he had looked upon the frowning faces of the rabbis; now his eyes rested upon the loving, peaceful countenance of Jesus. Already, at great cost to himself, he had acknowledged Him as a delegate of divine power; now a higher revelation was granted him.
To the Saviour's question, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" the blind man replied by asking, "Who is He, Lord, that I might believe on Him?" And Jesus said, "Thou hast both seen Him, and it is He that talketh with thee." The man cast himself at the Saviour's feet in worship. Not only had his natural sight been restored, but the eyes of his understanding had been opened. Christ had been revealed to his soul, and he received Him as the Sent of God.
A group of Pharisees had gathered near, and the sight of them brought to the mind of Jesus the contrast ever manifest in the effect of His words and works. He said, "For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." Christ had come to open the blind eyes, to give light to them that sit in darkness. He had declared Himself to be the light of the world, and the miracle just performed was in attestation of His mission. The people who beheld the Saviour at His advent were favored with a fuller manifestation of the divine presence than the world had ever enjoyed before. The knowledge of God was revealed more perfectly. But in this very revelation, judgment was passing upon men. Their character was tested, their destiny determined.
The manifestation of divine power that had given to the blind man both natural and spiritual sight had left the Pharisees in yet deeper darkness. Some of His hearers, feeling that Christ's words applied to them, inquired, "Are we blind also?" Jesus answered, "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin." If God had made it impossible for you to see the truth, your ignorance would involve no guilt. "But now ye say, We see." You believe yourselves able to see, and reject the means through which alone you could receive sight. To all who realized their need, Christ came with infinite help. But the Pharisees would confess no need; they refused to come to Christ, and hence they were left in blindness,-- a blindness for which they were themselves guilty.. Jesus said, "Your sin remaineth."
You can read the whole book right here... http://www.whiteestate.org/books/da/da.asp
I like the concept of the TT, there is just something not right about the nature, the part that is supposed to make sense to our innate beings, to truly speak to our hearts, maybe it was once there and maybe not, I hope it can be, and this is the hope I pray for.There is some other agenda there that doesnt work, this is the Body that I cannot BELIEVE in. To be a people filled with the HS, would make me along with others, Im sure in total awe. This is coming form a person that doesnt claim religion, only when I was in the TT, was I ever interested in GOD, I dont claim any religion now, Im just trying to BE REAL about what I see, think, and feel. I have been accused by members of having a religious spirit, this is absolutely ridiculous, it is that same pride that VOice had mentioned, maybe stemming from' WERE THE ONLY ONES' type of mentality. I am very sincere about my quest with the TT, to the point that when the Sus House was at max(BOSTON) Yoneq came and kissed me in front of everyone, on the cheek, i am willing to do whatever it takes. It is sad that the TRUTH cant be expressed there, in the way I think it should, and Im not here claiming to be Yahshua either, I am just trying to find the better Way, and as a friend suggested to me, that I need to pray for them, which is what Ill do...The TT would be an awesome place if it was truly functional. And that is eating millwet or working whatever job, but to have that true PLACE TO BELONG, and not come under the mind control of people that don't really know what theyre talking about when it comes to THIS LIFE, thank you for this FORUM, Brett Scott
A dear friend of mine commented on my recent writings and I wanted to share his thoughts about it here...
"Good morning David,
I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents worth.
I believe that you are an idealist. As such, you will always be looking at the TT as what they 'could be' and overlooking what they are. You will always be wishing that they could reach their potential and never wanting to look at the fact that everything that man does is flawed. I, too, would love for them to succeed, but I understand that human beings run the place and so it will always fall short. And, because of the adherence to certain teachings, there is really no hope for meaningful change. (And no reason for me to go back. It's not unconditional love if there are conditions - lol.)
And so you are also correct that TT is just another denomination that went down the cafeteria line and picked and chose what they would have on their plate. I knew and understood that Yoneq read many authors and books that were denied to the rest of us. He visited many religions and communities that were denied to the rest of us. And then he chose for the rest of us.
I really appreciate your soul searching. Most personality types feel that that is a waste of time and pointless. I happen to believe that it leads to enlightenment and the best possibilty to be the best and brightest person that we can be. So, please continue : )"
David, it is not out of the ordinary for an idealist to want to find TRUTH in the Holy Spirit, the perfection of God.etc....think about it, that is real, being an idealist shouldnt lessen the value of your quest, only increase it, being ideal about Gods Kingdom only gives the kingdom, more worth....much love, Brett
Just how many places are there in the first death? Is one of torment and darkness? Then there is the Bosom of Abraham? Where are those who were in the body and died and judged to have gone to the first death for not being totally submitted to their husbands or had bad mouthed Yoneq or Ha Emeq? Where is the cloud of witnesses?Is it an actual place? Where is Yahshua? On the throne? Who is with Him?
Now if Peter and Moses were found guilty of there unconfessed sins along with a few other disciples, where are they?
One last revelation...the rule of the saints is only 1000 years long. So actually there are only TWO ETERNAL DESTINY'S!!!
Brett there is only one way to find the truth of the Holy Spirit and the perfection of God.
"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus christ and Him crucified." 1Cor.2:2
Here Paul emphasises one of the most important jewels of Gospel importance because "...he that hath seen me, hath seen the Father"...John 12:9. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up" John 3:14. And, "If I be lifted up will draw all men unto me" John 12:32
Paul wanted only that men would view the life, the ways, of Yahshua as he intermingled with men. He wanted them to see how he looked upon those whose lives had been formed by their existance under the veil of evil that the evil one had cast over this world. He had nothing but tenderness and pity for even those who society would label as the most vile and morally decadent of men because He understood the circumstances of life in which any man under the multitudes of dark influences that this world offers could fall. He understood the weaknesses of man and the power of sin. He came to bring a forgiveness, hope and power that would be sufficent to save any man, no matter what his condition, that would take hold of His offer.
As the Saviour traversed the hills and valleys, the highways and byways, and the waterways of civilization, He encountered a vast array of men and women from all stations of life. Whether of nobility or of poverty, whether of a refined class or rough and disorderly, He always spoke words that were comforting and hopeful to those who needed them, and He always used tact to bear deep and true messages to open the ears of those whom He sought to lead into life. Such was the wisdom employed in the parables that He used so often. While He got His point across, He sought to avoid direct confrontation, whenever possible, by these means. 'He did not come to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might have life' John 3:17.
He was in a continual atmosphere of heaven and His spirit emanated that presence, for He was one with the Father. As He spoke to the hearts of those He encountered, His calm and gentle demeanor was as a soothing balm to those whose lives were in a continual turmoil due to the affects the world had on them in their daily strifes and toils. He always took time from His busy schedule to give an ear to one who was burdened with care, whether it were a child or adult, no ones concerns were considered of little iimportance to Him, for it was to come and relieve suffering humanity that He came. And it wasn't for just the Jewish nation that He came with hope, but for all men as He demonstrated by the conversation with the samaritan woman at Jacobs well and as in the story of the good samaritan. In this He showed that nobody was to be excluded from the offer of salvation, and that we are to do what we can, even to strangers not of our nation, that we happen across that have fallen to unfortunate circumstances. And by this depiction, we are shown that even if we are so engaged with our business, that it is not an excuse to bypass the needy soul, but we are required to make provision to meet their need if at all possible. "Cast your bread upon the waters and it will return unto you after many days" God is faithful, He will repay. He is not a man that He can lie.
Part 2
When our Master spoke sternly to anyone, it was mostly to the corrupt leaders of Israel. These men knew in their hearts that the ways that they used their authority was wrong and that they devised methods to satisfy an ever increasing lust for money and power. They loved the acclamation of men and the respect that they recieved from the local Roman government leaders for their control over the people and their oppulant lifestyles. To such, the Lord spoke with a straight forward and stern rebuke. When He cleansed the temple, He did so with the authority of heaven and with a severity that pointed toward prophetic events, "For the Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work, and bring to pass His act, His strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong; for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts, a consumption, even determined upon the whole Earth" Isaiah 28:21,22. This act, for a demonstrably prophetic purpose, stood in stark contrast to the ways in which we are commanded to treat those who oppose us. We are to return kindness for evil, turn the other cheek, do good to those who abuse and mistreat us. "For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even here unto were ye called, because, Yahshua the annointed, also suffered for us leaving us an example that we should follow in His steps. Many take liberty to cover their unloving harshness that they bestow upon God's servants, by claiming their excuse of "rightous indignation" as they point for justification to our Master's work in the cleansiing of the Temple. They have no such perogative. God says "vengence is mine, I will repay". Only He has such a right. Paul tells us that "the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men. apt to teach, patient; in mekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and that they recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will" 2Tim 24-26. "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, showing all meekness to all men" (Remember) "We ourselves were also sometimes foolish, disobediant, decieved, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hatng one another, but after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared" Titus 3:2-4. And it changed us, "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image (His character), from glory to glory (step to step, victory to victory) even as by the Spirit of the Lord" 2Cor 3:18. "Now the Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty"2 Cor3:17.
Part 3
I once heard a man say " We need to love each other more, and the way you do this is with your will, you need to will it, make the effort and choose to love each other". This statement could not be further from the truth. We do need to love each other, but if we could have done this by our own effort then Yahshua need not have come. The grace that is imparted to us by the Holy Spirit would not be needed. It is because we were devoid of such love, with no way to obtain it of ourselves, that heaven came down. We can't make ourselves love our neighbor, or the brethren, or even God. The ability to do so is a gift that comes by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit. As we behold Him through the scriptures we assimilate the traits of His loving character by viewing His examples of how He interacted with men in all situations. We can only come to Him by choice, but he gift to love comes by the work of grace upon our hearts through His Spirit. It can not come by beholding faulty men or our own effort. If you want to do it that way you need only to join the Catholic church. That's the way it is there. That's why I left. "Cursed in man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm". They did not let you look into the scriptures and have a relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They made you dependant on faulty men for your examples and instruction. They put themselves in the place of the Holy Spirit claiming that they had it and that you recieved it through them. That is a lie right out of the mouth of the devil. The best way that the evil one can decirve you is to tell you that you are being evil to use your God given analytical powers and cause you to obey unquestioningly to the dictates and the medium of mens minds. Paul, even though he was annointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, thought the Bereans as being "noble" for going home and searching the scriptures daily to see whether the things he preached were true. He was glad that they were not foolish enough to just trust in what he spoke with out questioning it through the word of God. And it's not what a man says that it says that we are to follow, but what we believe it says to us. "Let every man be convinced in his own mind". There is no better ploy for the evil one to decieve others than to get them to trust in the dictates of a man proclaiming to be the oracle of God, where he only needs to take the mind of the leader captive and have all the others follow his lies without question to their own deception and imprisonment. We are never called to follow men without question or to be treated unkindly for asking a reason for what they believe. God requires them to give an answer that does not contradict scripture and he requires us to study and become familiar with the scriptures so that we may know what his will and his teachings are so that we will not be decieved. If you are in an organization where you are not alloted time to do this and to discuss the differences, then no matter how much right things seemed that got you in it, you'd better get out of it, because the scriptures show that God doesn't work like that.
If you want to have our Father's heart then, "Let this mind be in you that was in the Annointed Yahshua". It comes, and can only come by beholding His life through the scriptures by His Spirit. He got it the same way, by beholding His Father. Make it your way and be set free. It's the liberty that's not of the law, but of the Spirit.
Awesome! Absolutely powerful and freeing! "Thanks Mrs Calabash!(anonymous) Wherever you are!"
You hit on several great points and observations of how and why the TT cannot be the "True Body of Messiah" and backed it up with scriptures.
I apologize for accusing you of being a current member. One who was could have never written such a thing because it would mean them taking their own head that they had cut off at joining and started thinking and questioning the leaders and even themselves.
Now if this was voiced by a current member in a gathering they would be accused of bringing a strange fire into the inner courts and that they did not have their brand of the Holy Spirit and were reasoning and questioning the "anointing" a la Yoneq. And if it was brought to them by a visitor(gemtile) they would be accused of not having the Holy Spirit nor the authority to even read and discern the scriptures let alone speak about them and then be labeled as a tool of the evil one.
But how could anyone, inside or out dispute the clear and written word you have just used?
Come on guys! Yes I am talking to the current members who read this.(actually I hope this gets back to many in the Tribes, around the walls of information control in the Tribes, even through the "underground") Reason rightly!
This person wrote this "we are to do what we can, even to strangers not of our nation, that we happen across that have fallen to unfortunate circumstances. And by this depiction, we are shown that even if we are so engaged with our business, that it is not an excuse to bypass the needy soul, but we are required to make provision to meet their need if at all possible. "Cast your bread upon the waters and it will return unto you after many days" God is faithful, He will repay. He is not a man that He can lie."
Now honestly tell me how much is done by "the Body" for the "those who society would label as the most vile and morally decadent of men" and to help "even if we are so engaged with our business, that it is not an excuse to bypass the needy soul, but we are required to make provision to meet their need if at all possible."
I have personally seen the needy turned and told to go away because I was told "we are not running a soup kitchen here".
But maybe we should have been!
Read this again!
"Yahshua demonstrated by the conversation with the samaritan woman at Jacobs well and as in the story of the good samaritan. In this He showed that nobody was to be excluded from the offer of salvation, and that we are to do what we can, even to strangers not of our nation, that we happen across that have fallen to unfortunate circumstances. And by this depiction, we are shown that even if we are so engaged with our business, that it is not an excuse to bypass the needy soul, but we are required to make provision to meet their need if at all possible.
Now on another excellent point, Ah what the heck...I was going to pick a few things out of what Anonymous wrote but it is all too powerful and compacted with truth and is such a "polished arrow" as the Tribes would say, I am just going to repost the whole thing...
Read this very carefully! Everyone! Inside and out!
"We can only come to Him by choice, but he gift to love comes by the work of grace upon our hearts through His Spirit. It can not come by beholding faulty men or our own effort. If you want to do it that way you need only to join the Catholic church. That's the way it is there. That's why I left. "Cursed in man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm". They did not let you look into the scriptures and have a relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They made you dependent on faulty men for your examples and instruction. They put themselves in the place of the Holy Spirit claiming that they had it and that you received it through them. That is a lie right out of the mouth of the devil. The best way that the evil one can deceive you is to tell you that you are being evil to use your God given analytical powers and cause you to obey unquestioningly to the dictates and the medium of mens minds.
Paul, even though he was annointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, thought the Bereans as being "noble" for going home and searching the scriptures daily to see whether the things he preached were true. He was glad that they were not foolish enough to just trust in what he spoke with out questioning it through the word of God. And it's not what a man tells you what it says that we are to follow, but what we believe it says to us personally. "Let every man be convinced in his own mind". There is no better ploy for the evil one to deceive others than to get them to trust in the dictates of a man proclaiming to be the oracle of God, where he only needs to take the mind of the leader captive and have all the others follow his lies without question to their own deception and imprisonment.
We are never called to follow men without question or to be treated unkindly for asking a reason for what they believe. God requires them (the Body/church) to give an answer that does not contradict scripture and He requires us to study and become familiar with the scriptures so that we may know what His will and his teachings are so that we will not be deceived. If you are in an organization where you are not allotted time to do this and to discuss the differences, then no matter how much right things seemed that got you in the group, you'd better get out of it, because the scriptures show that God doesn't work like that.
If you want to have our Father's heart then, "Let this mind be in you that was in the Annointed Yahshua". It comes, and can only come by beholding His life through the scriptures by His Spirit. He got it the same way, by beholding His Father. Make it your way and be set free. It's the liberty that's not of the law, but of the Spirit.
Thanks for your response, ANON, alot of what you say makes alot of sense to me, especially part 3, and if this is somewhat of a personal message than thank you even more. Alot of what you say is how the TT is, my experience of when I was there, I was sincere, but people said things to me that didnt make sense, and demanded my obedience to them, to the point that my mind became so disoriented, and dysfunctional , all hope seemed to be lost in even explaining myself, and on that note, the response I heard was 'it must be from the evil one, if you are that confused', which made me even more frustrated, I cam e to the TT, because of the life I saw, and assumed that the teachings within were the ingredients for the product of the life, , even to the point of having the Fruit of the Spirit, as time went on, this didnt seem true, more that the life there is an empty shell, with the outward appearance of having THE LIFE of the HOLY SPIRIT. So, I dont know if you are in the TT, if you are then, I can say the life you speak of, does not exist, in the general public of the Tribes, and if you are not in the TT, then Im interested in how you find the life of the things you speak, I do like what you say and how you say it, I have talked to thousands of people about religion , especially those in and around the TT, but never encountered someone that made so much sense. The Holy Spirit can't function in your own heart and conscience when you have other poeple lording their mind over you, basically forcing what they say onto you, the damaging effects of the soul are far-reaching, for being in error, of being in communion with God and His Spirit when you are really NOT.This is how the community practices mind control, because they don't have the Holy Spirit, or else the Fruit of the Holy Spirit will be communicated. Alot of what I make out of that place is the flesh, and they only decieve themmselves to keep thinking otherwise, As you said in the beginning of your article, .....'will draw all men unto me', in the TT, it is really all men drawn unto Yoneq and haemeq.....and the like, whoever is in 'Authority'.......and the first part of part 3 is a perfect example of the ways people claim in the TT, that seem nothing more than mans good effort. Im looking for something more, this is all for now......Brett
David after reading only a few lines of your post, Liberation has come to my soul, I will read the rest, and btw, glad I met you, sincerely, Brett
Measuring ones faith and peer pressure during childbirths...
Truly weighing the cost and taking unnecessary chances...
Does this sound familiar to anyone?
http://factnet.org/?p=542
Also...please...
everyone who reads this please pass this link around around...
http://factnet.org/?p=543
I know some here will look down on me for writing this, and it may not even get posted, but I'm planning to return to the Twelve Tribes in the near future.
Yes, I've been very critical of the communities at times, and am not denying that they are flawed human beings just like me, but I believe most want to follow Messiah and do his will.
As I've read the past negative comments on the Internet from myself and others, I wondered, "Why did we come and join to begin with?" Some no longer believe in God or Yahshua at all, did we when we came?
My life in the Tribes was very meaningful most of the time, and I was shown much grace. Yes, sometimes people did fail me. But as a touchy, easily-angered person, I had just as much or more to hand over to God to help me with.
I want to be a brother who loves the dish-sink, long work hours at times, hard work, and in so doing, express love for my brothers and sisters. I want to remain open.
Instead of writing about and against the Tribes, why don't we all just be friends?
No ex-member has shown me a more meaningful daily life where people love God, one-another, and welcome others. Maybe it's not for them, but I know it's for me. I wasted many years of my life by leaving.
Eric Christopherson
Go ahead Chris... Go back... Live the lie... Be true to them but not to thine own self...
You will leave within a year...
Do what you must...
I decided not to return. This has been very confusing for me, and I guess that's all I'll say. Thanks kindly.
What the apostles established on pentacost checks off that list, too
Whoa!!! I had totally forgotten YATT! I thought that it had disappeared years ago! I was just amazed at how prolific I was in my younger years! Thanks for giving me a stroll down memory lane Anon!
I have to be honest. I, too, have visited the tribes many times. I desire to be there. As I read the full thread of these posts, I see philosophy with no practical application and double-minded men that acknowledge their own instability. I'm sure if you were there long enough, you know what the scriptures say about double mindedness and instability. Perhaps you all should be deeply seeking God about that, trembling at His word and not trusting in your own understanding. It doesn't seem to be bearing the fruit you want.
I saw and experienced the same struggles when I lived there. What I know is, I have far more to judge in myself than I am worthy of judging in others. I've been a double minded, unstable man. Even a broken clock is right twice a day and perhaps we are those broken clocks. Yes, they sin, yes, they probably make incorrect judgments (as Israel has done throughout all of biblical history). But, are you the ground that "immediately receives the word with joy, but when persecution comes, fall away because you have no root in yourself?"
perhaps if you had remained a slain lamb, offering no resistance to an evil man, etc. etc. you would have later found grace to get the speck out of your brother's eyes. It's not that all of what you say is incorrect, but God judges the motives. Your motives for everything you say is not to help build his kingdom or to reconcile yourself to others. It is to disqualify his kingdom to justify your non-participation in it and to point out other's faults as a means of justifying your falling away. But the true son of God seeks to obey God's word so that He may glorify God, not using God's word to justify himself. He seeks to justify God by dying to himself (which at times means silently bearing injustice and abiding in obedience.)
You made a covenant. A covenant is a solemn vow before God that's for better or for worse, unto death. When the for worse came, you chose doubt because you wanted to back out of your covenant (which implies a willingness to suffer through the for worse). But as it says in the word "they went out from us to show they were never of us." Can't you see by now in your conduct in the world that what qualifies someone as "of us" is not how you've behaved? So now you're searching for some philosophy, some interpretation that justifies you to soothe the torment of "double-mindedness" but the fact that you have to look for another interpretation or another philosophy or another "teacher" shows that you have itching ears, no longer enduring sound doctrine. Sound doctrine has to be "endured" because it is not easy and it necessitates a suffering at times.
When you made the covenant, did someone promise you they'd be perfect? That you'd be treated how you wanted to be all the time? I think if you truly sought to only judge yourself, you might find real repentance. Sometimes how others fall short is just an opportunity for our iniquity to come to the surface, but if we have our eyes set on others, rather than set on Yahshua and becoming like him, we really miss the opportunity to be purified and instead resort to pointing the fingers to cover over our sin.
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